Hey Gang,

I'm looking into either buying or building a car for IP and would love some feedback.  I'm most familiar with RWD V8's (drive a Gray Corvette in SoloSprint), but am contemplating an import for IP2 or 3 instead of prepping the Vette for IP1.  I'm a mechanic (amongst other things) and have built a bunch of muscle cars over the decades, and could probably handle much of the build work myself - other than the cage.  Race setup would be new...

My thoughts are to try to maximize the allowable HP in the class in the lightest package (the common goal for all of us) - but my personal experience tells me that is generally done with maximum displacement, however I suspect that may not always be the case with Japanese engines.  For example: 1.8L VTEC Acura (142 HP stock) compared to 2.5L Subaru (155 HP stock) in like-weight vehicles.  Does the Acura respond much better to the allowed IP2 mods than the Subaru and end up with the most HP, or is it pretty much already fully-tweaked out of the box?

The goal is also to haul the spare wheels and associated gear to the track in the car, instead of trailering it.  So, I'd need to be able to put temporary permits on it and drive it over an hour each way to Mission.  The joys of apartment living...

I'm pretty sure that spare wheels and such will not fit in the Vette even if it was gutted (it's a coupe not a hatch), and the tires/brakes budget is a bit of a deterrent.  I'm also thinking that a FWD/AWD might maximize my entertainment value considering all the rain we get at Mission.  With both of those taken into consideration - that might rule out a Camaro/Firebird IP1 as an option.

Ideally, I'd want to run in a class that has a healthy attendance - not in a class of 1 or 2 (I'm not sure of the numbers that often turn up).  And with that taken into consideration, may want to upgrade past IP into a more modified class as time goes on.

Thoughts/comments/suggestions?

Cheers,
Darwin.

If you want to win IP2 you will need an Integra Type-R or Honda S2000.  Those seem to be the front runners, If you just want to play then cars like RX7's , BMW, and even the acura integra RS are all good cars with a bit of work.

Hi Darwin,

Here are a few ideas to get you started:

IP3:
1988-1991 Honda CRX or Civic Si - this car is "the easy button".  Probably half a dozen race at Mission and the CRX in particular has been proven fast.  I think a CRX Si has won the IP3 championship for the last 5 or 6 years.  Information on what to do to make them fast is easily available and they're light and cheap to run.  You can probably pick up a mid-pack example already built for under $5000.

1992-1993 Acura Integra GS-R - much harder to find and maintain than the CRX due to its rarity.  More expensive too.  They're also a bit more finicky to make fast, but they are right up there with the CRX in terms of speed, if not a touch faster once they're set up properly.  I race one of these, as does Amir Kani and a couple other guys.

1994-1997 Honda Del Sol VTEC and 1999-2000 Civic SiR - these cars are close cousins to the 1992-1993 GS-R, and much of what I said about the GS-R applies to them as well.  Curt Storms runs a Del Sol VTEC and is very competitive with it.

1990-1993 Mazda Miata (1.6L) - Nobody has done a full-on competitive build of one of these cars, but on paper at least it should be right there in terms of speed.  Tons of them around so they're cheap.  Spec Miatas run about 1-2 seconds off of a winning IP3 pace but have fewer allowable modifications, so that might be a decent place to start.

IP2

2001+ Honda S2000 - Garry Bone races one.  Last year he ran lap times around a second faster than the nearest contenders.  I would say that this is *the* car to have if you want to win in IP2 right now.

1992-1995 BMW 325is - On paper it's not as fast as the S2000 but apparently it responds very well to IP legal modifications.  Glen Mueller races one at Mission and his best time is still a second off of what the S2000 will run, but this is its first year so it should improve with more development.  There are more of these in the States, you could buy one that's prepped for the SCCA ITR class and run it here in IP2 without any modifications.

1988-1991 BMW M3 - Expensive, rare, not as quick as the S2000, but it's close.

Acura Integra Type-R - used to be the winning ticket until the S2000 showed up.

1994-2001 Acura Integra GS-R - again, was competitive in IP2 until the S2000 arrived on the scene

IP1

How much money do you have?  In the past the C5 Z06 has won this.  This year there aren't many people racing IP1, so I'm not sure what it would take to be competitive.

In terms of car counts, you'll typically see around a dozen cars in IP3, half that many in IP2 and then a couple IP1 cars.  If you're looking for lots of people to race against, IP3 is where it's at.

Hope that helps.

- Jordy

Darwin,
Can't resist a correction


Acura LS 1.8 (B18A/B) (non-VTec)  142hp
Acura GSR 1.8 (B18C1) (VTec)  170hp
Acura Type R 1.8 (B18C5) (VTec) 197hp ;D

Lorenzo,
Can't resist a correction.  VTEC is all upper case.

:P

Jordy,
Cant resist a correction.
In Japan Vtec is not upper case  ;)

Is NERDS uppercase or not? :D

Only in Japan.

Guys,

Thanks for the feedback (and the Integra HP correction - you've illustrated my point nicely about GM V8s being my comfort zone)!

Unfortunately, the storing/hauling the wheels & gear inside the car to the track thing is a fairly significant constraint - which would rule out the S2000, Del Sol, and the Miata along with my '99 FRC.  Unless I commit to also purchasing a trailer (and storing it somewhere), I'm limited to vehicles with more (enclosed) interior space.  It's very good to be aware of what the competition is, and how this constraint will affect my upper limits, though.

IP3:
1988-1991 Honda CRX or Civic Si: certainly on my radar, and if I go with an "easy button" approach will be on my short list.  Especially if I elect to purchase a prepped car.

1992-1993 Acura Integra GS-R: one of my early considerations - particularly if looking to max out the displacement in the class.  This deserves more investigation.

IP2:
1992-1995 BMW 325is: don't know much about BMWs - unless these are comparatively cost effective to operate, I'd probably be inclined to go with an F-Body (or my FRC) if running a RWD car.

Acura Integra Type-R: also one of my early considerations, but more pricey for a donor car than some of the alternatives.  However, the many Type-R improvements over the same year GS-R may translate into having to do fewer mods to get up and running - this may mitigate the higher start-up costs somewhat.

1994-2001 Acura Integra GS-R: also under consideration.  If I can find a prepped car and want to run more in the mid-field this may be a good 'for the money' option.

1998-2000 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS: I like the AWD, it's got a big engine (which a quick search of the RS forum reveals can likely be tweaked near 200 HP with IP mods) and weighs about the same as an Integra, and it's got the room to store/haul the wheels & gear.  There are lots of race parts available, and it might make a good platform to transition from IP to GT at a later date.  Has anyone run one of these at Mission?

IP1:
F-Body Camaro/Firebird if I go RWD and without a trailer (if the wheels will fit...).

My '99 Corvette FRC if I decide to significantly increase my budget and also get a trailer.  I'd be looking at $3-5k to complete the cage, other required IP mods, and a set of sticky tires (have been running street Nitto NT05's in SoloSprint so far).  This does not factor in any other mods beyond what I've done for SS4 SoloSprint (not much).  I figured I could probably sell the Vette and buy a prepped IP2/3 car and another (lesser) daily driver and be roughly even - this has been a big motivator.

Cheers,
Darwin.

There have been a couple Subarus at the track but I think they've all been turbo.

A quick look at what mods actually make 200hp on a 2.5RS makes me think that 200hp with bolt ons is wishful thinking.  For example, this guy made 200hp at the crank with a build that had many, many mods that are not IP legal (dyno charts halfway down the page): http://www.ottawasubaru.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=287289

Go back to stock pistons, cams, rods, an unported head, etc. and how much do you think it will make?

His dyno charts show another problem with the Subaru.  That 200 at the crank only translates to 142 at the wheels, which is about 5hp less than what I get with my *IP3* GS-R.  That all wheel drive system sucks too much power.

I wouldn't bet on one of those being competitive.  Except if it rains for every race, maybe.

Jordy - thanks for the advice/info.  And, they are relatively expensive donor cars too.

For the record, I've only been on the track at Mission 6 times (4 SoloSprint, 2 Novice) and it's only been dry twice (not including driver training where it rained on day 2).  I guess my perspective is a little skewed, eh?

There are a few 93 GS-R's on Craigslist in the $2500-$3700 range.  How much money do you figure a guy might shovel onto getting the car IP legal?

Cheers,
Darwin.

Darwin, I see an F-body isn't high on your list, but a few LS1 hard-top 4th gen WS6 Formulas are out there. With one of those you'd have a good IP1 car, as light as my 3rd gen but an extra 1000 RPM and 330 RWHP to play with.  If I was starting over (I used to run an '89 ex-Player's IROC in IP1) that's what I'd do, then if you go GT later, there is huge potential in the LS1, some are easily making 450 RWHP with bolt on's.  If people weren't always bugging me about acting my age, I'd probably be building one now...  :D

Darwin wrote on Sep 8^th, 2011 at 12:34pm:

There are a few 93 GS-R's on Craigslist in the $2500-$3700 range.  How much money do you figure a guy might shovel onto getting the car IP legal?

Legal, safe and reliable?  Somewhere in the $3000-$5000 range if you do most of the work yourself.  If you want it to be fast as well, add another $3000-$5000 and several weeks worth of time in the garage on top of that.

Darwin,

check your pm

Darwin,
I have a 92 GSR in that price range.

Darwin,
You rented my CRX during the race in Aug. You said to contact you if I ever want to sell it. Well I am seriously thinking of selling it, or I could rent it to you for the season, and thus eliminate the need for you to store and haul the car and all the parts etc.
Call me and maybe we can come up with some kind of deal.
Tim
CRX Si #168
604.866.1589

Larry - a 4th gen F-Body would be very nice, for sure.  Thanks for the info!  But, I'm guessing the tires/brakes costs would be pretty much the same as for my Vette.  If I had a bigger budget I'd likely be inclined to consider these options, but I think they're both out of my reach at this point.

Jordy - good to know.  Money & time...

Paul - PM replied.

Thanks again for all the input, Guys!  I've been getting some interest, doing some more research & crunching numbers through the budget this weekend.  Making progress...

Cheers,
Darwin.

Hey Darwin;

I have actually had some thoughts about selling the camaro for a race car again as well, the 4th gens LS1 cars like mine are nice but hard to run against the porsches or corvettes. My car is under-prepared for IP1 and with the full interior, a/c, etc it weights 3550lbs and runs best of 1:16s at mission, even stripped out with some better spring rates it would be hard to run under 1:14s with this car, I think some of the IP1 vettes have run 1:12s in the past. plus the vettes are lighter thus better on brakes and tires.
The other thing is 4x295 or 315 tires will be very tight fit into a f-body with a cage - I drive to mission but have the tires brought in a truck

I have run a few cars around mission when I had a race licence and would suggest to rent a couple rides to see what you like. Dont rule out a trailer, I would like a properly built light tube car that I could tow to mission with the family minivan, with a trailer that will fit in the garage.

A guy like you should consider a formula car as well, I would love one but I just dont fit.

Later

I was waiting for someone else to drop the formula car bomb, so there we go!

Have a look at recent lap times in the vees, there's no cheaper way to run 1:18's that I know of ;)

Check your PM's!

Larry - thanks for the link, the cage in that Camaro is particularly impressive.  Looks like the dash may not be IP legal, unfortunately.  Looks like a good deal, but it would need to be trailered for sure (it would never be registerable in Canada), and the transport costs would factor in.  There sure are some smoking deals in the US, eh?

Scott & Tiago - I hear you, I could wrap my head around a FF, I rented a FV for a novice race last year and it sure is a different animal from the 345 HP Vette...  That would take some re-learning before I could get anywhere near the 18's.  I'd need an enclosed trailer in order to be able to store the wheels & such - and would need to find somewhere to store the trailer.  Gets into the infrastructure arms-race again...

I've been crunching numbers & making notes and phone calls this weekend, and still need to get in touch with a few folks that have contacted me, I really appreciate all the feedback!

Cheers,
Darwin.

Hey Gang,

It's been a month, and a few things have happened (like not making it to the last event and not being able to talk to you all in person).  And as it turns out, I have a terminal EBTCM fault on the Vette and replacement parts are only available used (for $600-$1500 USD on eBay with no real guarantee of how long they'll last), and no one rebuilds these particular units.

As not having ABS, Traction Control, and Active Handling takes a significant chunk out of the already depreciated resale value of my car (roll bar & mileage considered), and makes selling it to buy a prepped car and a replacement DD considerably less reasonable, and factoring in that I'd have to disable those systems for IP anyways...

I've decided to continue the transformation of my car from DD through SoloSprint and into an IP1 car.  Not the most cost-effective way to get into the sport, but what the hell - you only live once!

So, I've been working on assembling the infrastructure (small tire trailer, hitch for the Vette, spare wheels, and a place to store the trailer), and while still doing SoloSprint, will be working on getting the car ready for Tech by mid-summer so that I can do my last Novice & first Senior race in the car in Aug.  As I've already done some prep for SoloSprint, the transformation is about half-complete already.  There will always be more to do over the years to continue to improve the car, but this will get me up and running in a known entitiy without having to trailer the car (just the wheels) - and it also relieves me of the hassle of trying to sell it.

I certainly appreciate all the input, advice, and offers over the last month and a half - I'll probably be back to the well several times for more input during the transformation.  Good luck with all your winter projects - I suddenly have a bunch of work to do...

Cheers,
Darwin.