This had to be the hottest racing i have ever seen  in 25 years of racing in the northwest the temp was over the top for car/driver and spectator.
It was great to see the paddocks jammed with race cars again.
Bob Williams has earned bragging rights on how to get a group to get involved ie FV and put on a great show. Maybe  we can take a page from his book get get so of the other class ie FF to get together and put on a good show and have some great racing.
Thanks to Tom Johnston Stanton Guy and all the volunteers for a geat Event
Alan ;D

Thanks Allan.....but there is a lot of experience in the FART camp that makes it possible......Scott, Jennifer, Graham, Adam (really made it happen for all of us this past w/e) Pam, Gayle, all of our sponsors.....but mostly, all the competitors. That's why we do this isn't it? No national championship at stake, no money, just good food, good friends, some swag, some braggin rights, which BTW will go to someone else next year ;) I like Dennis and the Pos's but hell....we need local talent next year EH?
For the VEE group of racers and family....we had a GREAT time.
If the CCGP doesn't go again.....how about 24 FF? There's enough around.....just have to ask.....
Thanks again BCHMR for the weekend....it was awesome.

Don't worry about Dennis and the Posners, I'll be winning the race next year. Not sure if I count as "local talent", but it's better than nothing, eh? :)

Maybe you can share some of that experience with with us ie FF group. I agree it is a team effort and it takes more than one person to make it happen but it also takes a team leader to rally  the troops.

Historic events have always been a lot of fun because it's all about the great show that is put on and the freinds you get hang out with (one big party all weekend). As you said there is no championships on the line. I hope we can make next year even better and the only way that can happen is if everyone gets involve promting the event and encouraging there buddies to get thier cars out in stead of just gathering dust.

Alan    

While I agree with both sentiments, I have a sneaking supicion that, with the advent of "The Ridge", the calendar is going to get crowded.

In order to make the event popular it will be necessary to make it really, really user friendly and a lot of fun. Having a specific highlighted race group is a great idea. If the CCGP falls on hard times due to lack of enthusiasm, why not approach Chris Doodson and ask him to bring all the HONDA guys? That would provide an in to the HONDA club (it does when we have one of these at the CACC events).

Somethink like a FV race, a HONDA race and vintage cars would provide a really nice mix for a race weekend.

Mike

Not what i would want to see at a HMR event. I think we need to see some of the purpose bui ;Dlt cars coming out of moth balls and be displayed and raced again before they are lost for ever ie FF Sportracers and so on thats what  the spectators want to see. Its a show of great looking and well prepared cars. Spectators expect to see cars you don't see every day that's what keeps them coming back.

Alan

Sorry I missed the show, sounds like you guys had some fun. I know that Bob always tries very hard to enjoy his events thoroughly, something that we shared many times at Barnes Lake years ago.

Maybe there are still some older GT and Production cars around, like GT4 & 5, F, G & H Production that could build an interesting race group. I think Westwood 5o tried that but didn't get much traction. Has to be a few small-bore, not-quite-vintage but no-longer-current race cars parked in garages or under tarps. I remember and enjoyed that group years ago at Westwood, with the staggered starts - H-Prod. first, then G and then F and ending up all together at the finish.

Anyway, my 2 cents... :-/

Lorne, do you happen to know of any small bore cars that might fit that bill ?   ;D I bet you do ! I'd go to see that.

There are some older cars out there that I'm aware of, however the owners are not willing to pull them out of mothballs for just one event a year. I expect the eligibility for running the REVS series to loosen up a bit over the next few years, at that point I think it will be worth the effort of the owners of these gems to get these cars out of mothballs.

bunracer wrote on Aug 16^th, 2012 at 5:54am:

do you happen to know of any small bore cars that might fit that bill ?   ;D I bet you do ! I'd go to see that.

Yeah Paul, I'm stuck in the past just like the rest of us. I'm still hoping that sometime before all of the gasoline and oil are used up to put a whole season on the track.

Maybe the vintage crowd can adopt something like the mid 70's GT/Production car classes with a cut off up to, say, mid '80's? I'm not sure where a jumping off point could be but it would be better to start now. No point waiting another year or two, we'll all be dead!

My father used to say "If your name isn't in the obit notices, it's a good day" I miss him :D

BTW Paul, how MUCH would you be willing to pay?

I would love to see a mid 80's cut off for all weekends that there are vintage races (not just the BCHMR) - 1985 would be great, especially if it allowed former Trans Am/IMSA cars. The REVS rules would still give a points advantage to the older less modified classes which can be driven to and from the track, and I personally have no problem with that. Opening up the rules to allow for older Improved Production cars (which would allow old DRC Datsun 510's - and there are still a few of them around) would do a lot to increase grids (although there will be a year or so lag time as people bring these dusty relics up to current safety standards and do general clean up work). Of course most VRCBC members know why I have that bias.

Mike

HaHa! Yes, I'm with you on that! My car is now over 30 years old but somehow isn't "vintage" for race purposes.  The times, they need to be changin'...

This reminds me of the the days  when i would hire new sales reps they would go out on sales calls and after a couple of weeks they are the experts on how we should be running the company and market the products.
The problem was they hadnt produced a dime in income in that time. If they had taken the time to see what made  the company and the other salesmen succeed then maybe they would have succeeded.
Vintage isn't just about the age of the vehicle it's also about the restoration preservation and appearence of that vehicle.
SCCA has a vintage group they dont seem to care what
mods you make or the condition of the the appereance.
The last run at seattle they only had 3 cars sign up i wonder why that would be.  ???

Alan

I have to agree with Alan. The various vintage racing groups, (VRCBC, SOVREN, HSMA, CSRG, VARAC and others) have specific details upon which they decide if something is "vintage". SCCA's requirement, which is mainly an effort to increase their entries at the regional level, is only a time issue (in their case I believe 25 years).

One needs to study what the participants in these other groups are doing to be able to accurately interpret what's happening.  

Their philosophy may not be the same as yours.

Gee Alan and Mike, I hope you aren't upset that I responded to this post. I'm not sure how to interpret the statement about salesmen off somewhere not earning anything. Part of anything succesful is promotion as well as product. And like everything else time marches on. Perhaps the fledgling SCCA 'vintage' participants might participate if they were encouraged & enlightened rather than not.

My biggest problem, and I will be the first to admit it, is that I just haven't made the time to get the car out to the track. I was hoping there would be a place in the local vintage arena for my car, with it's 1982 & 1983 Canadian runoffs history and FIA homolgation papers. Oh well, my bad.


???

As I said (I think), the rules established by the various Vintage Racing groups are those they have decided upon. The drivers (in most cases) get to vote on the regulations (just as in CACC) and that's the way that works. I believe that the SCCA Vintage regulations are too loosely interpreted. They allow a lot of non-standard, non-vintage parts in their Vintage cars. That's why many of those cars don't make the grade in regular Vintage racing.

The fact that Lorne (and others) choose to prepare and race cars that don't fit the regulations is their issue. Not the Vintage racing organization.

It's true that the Vintage regulations are always in a state of flux and, in all likelihood, somewhere down the road, a lot of these cars will become eligible.

Some of that philosophy has to do with some historical changes. Somewhere around '71 or '72 club racers were allowed fender-flares, wider wheels, slicks, etc. That's one of the reasons that a lot of the regulations are cut off around that date.

As for Alan's comment about salesmen. Beat me.

There! That's my rant.

Thanks Mike, always fun. In my case I DID my homework and actually have original FIA Homolgation papers showing fender flares, front & rear spoilers, larger brakes and 5 speed trans listed as option 1 & option2 parts from Nissan. When I showed these to Jim Latham a couple of years back he said, "Wow, 'guess you're legal".

Several others took this to mean that all cars can run these same type of parts. Not so,according to Jim, only if the original FIA paperwork for each individual car includes the specific parts listed above. Which mine does.

The point I was hoping to make was the growing number of obsolete GT and Production race cars that have no home. If we don't begin to address and encourage these they will get crushed or thrown away, just like my Northwest Racing tube frame Datsun 1200 did.

Anyway, happy Friday and don't get sunburnt....[glb]:P[/glb]

And as a driver who is getting on in years myself, I have kept in the back of my mind (and the cars in the back of my shop) the idea that I would one day enter the ranks of the vintage racers and bring out a suitably aged Honda to run around the track in a vintage grid, but from what I'm hearing (and I'll be the first to admit I haven't been listening for very long), I wouldn't be welcome with just a run of the mill older Honda that might have looked like the old Honda Michelin race car or heaven forbid a CRX which other than being a supremely competent race car in it's day, has no historical significance nor pedigree upon which to ask for inclusion. Am I waiting for something that may never happen ?

Well I guess I will take that CRX shell off your hands Paul and build a faster  GTL car  ;D

Paul et al:

I think you've missed the point a little. I implied that Vintage rules are voted on by the various memberships of the clubs. That would seem to indicate that there willl be, over time, changes in what is eligible. I wouldn't give up yet.

Mike

In actual fact there is a lot of controversy on this subject within the VRC, and the rules will start to loosen up as a growing number of us 'younger guys' push to get the cars that were significant to us in our youth to be included. Already there is a rolling rule in the works. My issue, and I think this speaks to a few of the members around my age, is that even a BRE Datsun 510 would not be legal under the rules as they currently stand (correct me if I am wrong on this).

I do understand what Alan is getting at, but not all of us are outsiders to the problem, and I do understand (and agree) that these cars should be brought back to their original condition - however most real race cars were never garage queens, and among some VRC members there does appear to be this arrogance that comes across that to be eligible they must be garage queens - this turns a lot of potential cars away. All that said, the attitudes are changing as I see many of my old Westwood friends starting to join the Vintage Racing Club and push to bring out the cars they raced 30 years ago. So do expect to see flares allowed in the future for cars that had flares back in their day. IMHO Honda Challenge and DRC 510's should be out there as they represent some of the history of this region.

Mike B.
META President
VRCBC member
Track-Ops member.
Owner of an historic race car.

With the cancellation of the westcoast challenge i bet a $100.00 that if you approached the executive of the SCCBC and ask if you could fill that spot i think they would go for it.
How ever you would have to come up with enough cars to fill that spot. This would give you a place to run but most importantly it would prove to us old farts who supposedly are against change how commited this group is and if the numbers are there that we keep hearing about.
The comment about trailer queens, i never realized all it took was a fresh paint job and a little TLC to classified it a trailer queen. I guess taking some pride in what you own isn't in the books of the next gen of vintage car owners. The day it becomes run what you brung is when i get out and i'm sure i won't be the only one. I guess we have no chance as a group if the philosophy of what it means to be in vintage i think we are done as a vintage club, we are just another race club.

Alan :-[

Alan,

I actually did start to get something set-up a few years ago, track time and the logistics of writing rules was where I had to drop it due to time commitments. I had 10 guys with cars sitting around that were interested (this is without doing any advertising) - we were tossing around the term 'Classic Class' along with a few others. This possibly will be picked up by someone else, as I've continued to hear rumblings about it (mostly trying to con me into working on the rules).  However in all cases - and I would expect this would apply to Paul Bunbury - they will not put time and money into prepping/fixing up/updating the car until something is definitely going to happen.  The Stecs have a 510 with flares, again they will not put time and money into the car unless there is a chance it will run regularly. A once a year event like the BCHMR will not draw these cars out.  

I'm not talking about a fresh coat of paint (which my Camaro will eventually get), I'm talking about changing the character of how some of these cars were put together in the first place. For example my Camaro is rough around the edges because it was put together in a hurry for the 1985 Trans Am season in a short period of time - little details, like how the firewall was beaten on with a hammer to gain clearance for headers, and crude sloppy welds to attach various components and mount body panels. IMHO changing the appearance of these things would destroy the character of the car as this was how it was run back in the day. The routing of some of the hoses is also less than desirable and not aesthetically pleasing however I intend to leave that as it is (unless there is a safety reason to change it), because that would be period correct for that car (I have been in contact with one of the drivers that ran the car in most the Trans Am races it ran in). Bottom line is that a fresh coat of paint on everything is not going to hide those things. All that said I will continue to work on cleaning the car up (it looked a lot worse when I got it than it did for the CCGP).

What I was getting at with the Garage Queen comment was that I see far too many vintage race cars that look better than they would ever have when they were new - to me this is not period correct, it is over restored.

Indecently, I did not intend to imply that some of our members are arrogant, however that is how they are sometimes perceived by others - the perception is something we in the VRC must work on. I think it would be a huge shame if Bunbury and others were to scrap cars that actually raced back when they were new, to me these are potentially real vintage race cars (and trust me even cleaned up they will have flaws).

So what your saying is we should lower our standards because some guy in the day was a hack to preserve what he had butchered so it can run with us.
I'm sorry but i really think you are missing the point.
If this group can't even get together and put something in place they can't be that commited. It take everyone in a group to pull together to make things happen.
In the formula ford group Felim and myself have invested money and time lots of phone calls to get it back to the bigger numbers we aren't waiting for so one else to do it for us.
We started the formula ford website that seems to be work rather well.
I can't see why we would want to open the doors to anyone that can't appreciate what vintage is about.
Just like the old Boys club the out siders all want in so they have to change thier rules that have been around for ever.

Alan

Alan,

I do appreciate all your points. And I am not waiting for someone else to do anything, I know someone is. However the process will be slow because those working on it are already involved in making sure too many other things happen for our sport. For my part, as you well know, I already devote a fair amount of time helping with current motorsport activities, which is why I had to drop the idea I got rolling in the first place. I feel my time at present is far better spent supporting what we have, and working within the system.

I am well aware that I am not likely to be able to run my car locally in a vintage event, I'm prepping it for the Historic Trans Am series where it will fit in and is welcome.

Now for some reality about our region, Mission is not Westwood and never will be, and it is certainly not Monterey (that is not to say that I don't like Mission, it is my home track and is very dear to me). We are not likely to draw cars from down south in the near future for economic reasons, and the added hassles of crossing the boarder (this has also affected turn out at Conference races). So if the VRC is to survive it has to look at what it can do to grow within our own region. I don't expect to drag the club down to low standards (and if my car never becomes acceptable so be it - it is a bit of an odd ball anyway), however we do need to make some shifts that will attract people like Paul Bunbury who have a car (or in some cases several) sitting around. The rolling rule is a start, if they know their car will be eligible in X number of years they will know the time frame they have to prepare it so it is ready to go when eligible. In our region it would also go a long way if we accept cars that were prepped to Conference rules for the year that car was made (this would allow cars the are currently ineligible). In the early 70's cars were running slicks, flares, and spoilers and as we start to accept cars from that era we also need to recognize that fact. Currently I see us chasing the same market as SOVREN has and we are loosing. The VRC needs to look at ways to keep the club coffers healthy, and the last few years they have been bleeding badly.

Mike

I'm fed up with hearing about all the people that have cars in their garage and would come and race 'if we had the right class for them to race in'.
If you have a car and want to race then fix the bloody thing so that you can comply with the rules as they stand!
It's not up to race organizers or sanctioning bodies to create a class for everyone that 'has a racecar in his or her garage'!
I don't want to see 'old bangers' in vintage, period!
Serious race fans see beautiful vintage racecars on television they don't want to see rusty 510's at Mission Raceway!
If you want to run vintage then you need to put the money and effort into restoring a 'legal' vintage car (personally I don't have the money and don't wish to race with the vintage group, but I do have a hell of a lot of fun racing the legal cars that I own).
Real racers with passion for our sport find a way to come and race and these are people with whom I enjoy racing.
:) :)

Kieth,

I'm not talking rusty 510's, but I am talking about cars with either flared fenders and/or spoilers. All will be much better prepared than a certain Anglia. All the cars I'm talking about would be acceptable for the BCHMR. They either do or could with a bit of work meet the appearance standards - that is not the issue. And yes they could be run in any current class... as back markers. The difference is that in vintage they would have someone to 'play with' and not have to worry about body contact.  In the case of Marks's old DRC car the dash board is long gone, something done to may DRC 510's. Of course Mark's 510 isn't exactly a DRC car anymore because he has started to butcher it to make it fast enough so he could play with someone. Indecently as far as fans go, every time Mark's 510 has showed up at a BCHMR event he has had followers drop by excited to see one of the old DRC cars that they used to watch at Westwood.

Oh, the most horsepower one can expect to get out of an old L series Datsun motor is still less than a 20 year old bone stock fuel injected Honda motor produces straight from the factory - kind of kills these old cars with carburetors from running competitively anywhere in a production class. This is why they are sitting.

Thanks Keith you have just said what i have said all along that if you truely love the sport your car would not be sitting in a garage not running or needing to be restored.
If they want to run comptively again i'm sure the SCCBC would find a spot for them if they have enough cars.
Like Mike said who is going to spend the money and time on these cars for one event i can apprecaite that so why are we flogging this dead horse over and over.
We only have one event a year.

Alan

REVS is at every CACC weekend. Those are the rules we need to start moving into the groups that ran in the early to mid '70s at Westwood, accepting the ICSCC rules of the day.

So this isn't about having a place to run these cars it's about have the VRC change it's rules.
Tell us why you wouldn't want to approach SCCBC to give them a place to run.
I have had my say so this will be it for me.

Alan

Wow  :o Guess I got in the middle of something I'm still not sure I understand. Guess I will just hang onto this stuff (as nobody is offering me any cash for it right now anyway) and hope that things get clearer as I get closer to that day when I want to get involved in vintage stuff. If that happens. Remember it's supposed to be fun too.

Are you saying then I shouldn't wait for the cheque in the mail...... ???
All this time I was told there would be $$$ :-*

Paul, you got my point - I'm not entirely sure Alan did. In reality the rules have been evolving and will continue to do so, by the time you are ready one of your cars will more than likely be eligible. The rules do come up for review from time to time and they are determined more or less by the membership. I expect a rolling rule to come into effect, however it would likely end up being in the 30 to 40 years of age range. Current rules are closely tied to the FIA rules of the day - which do not necessarily reflect what was actually raced in our region (for all intensive purposes Westwood). The BCHMR is completely separate from the REVS - this is what gets confusing to many. Keith and Alan both make valid points, cars should show pride of ownership.

If you saw my Camaro as it ran in the CCGP (and I was told that in fact I could have run it in the BCHMR) you would know I have a lot of work to do to get it to that level of appearance however I do expect to get a lot of the sheet metal replaced over the winter. In fact I have no problem with the expectation that the car appear clean and respectable. But my car is an old Trans AM car and any restoration I do will be to bring it back to what it would have been when it first started to race. Because of some of the idiosyncrasies of the rules for Trans Am cars I would not expect this particular car to ever be acceptable to REVS, then again that is not where the value in this car is.

If you truly are interested in racing in Vintage at some point join the VRC, you will find that we really are a fun bunch in spite of our disagreements (although I will need to buy Alan and Keith a beer at the next meeting after this). We are about the preservation of vintage race cars and vintage cars in general. However to vote on the rules you do need to be a holder of a vintage race licence, so if you do want to affect change you do need to 'put your money where your mouth is'. More important, body contact in vintage racing is really frowned upon, so all your efforts in getting your car cleaned up (even to the garage queen status) is worth it because it is relatively easy to keep it there.

What????? no body contact?  That counts out the Honda Paul, as we all know Hondas bounce off of any vehicle within 10 feet. ::)

I sat in at a VRC meeting a few years ago and I heard the no contact rule.
I said "so if I'm having a great race, maybe even leading (this was a hypothetical situation ::)) and some one runs into me or spins (I was thinking of one Mr. Stec) in front of me and I clip him, then I have to come into the pits?" Yes I was told, that is the VRC way.
Well I love a lot of the cars these guys 'race' but it will be a year or ten before I'm ready for that gentlemanly competition :)!

I'm always amazed how you guys over the pond treat vintage as something special like cant be touched etc, Like the no contact rule etc, a race car is a race car its there to be raced and at sometime there will be contact or crashed. I saw last year when a Mclaren can-am car was racing at full speed, crashed and wheels ended up in driver area, or f1 cars bang and both crash. Yes these are pricesless cars but people in europe race the buggars off them, even faster  than when they were brand new in some cases of the classes here.

With the rules etc, again I don't see how you guys are so regimental on stuff, I was looking at the silverstone classic grids and to be honest make Monteray race week look like a mission weekend, you had classic pre 66 f1 cars, formula 500 & f2 race, master series g1, master sportcars etc but on the same weekend you have historic group C and touring cars race for sunbeam talbots to ford sierra cosworths all mixed into 1 race.
I remember when i was over was talking to the vintage chairman and mentioned about a race series called thundersaloons, now these were highly modified cars (ie one car had a Porsche 962 engine put into a sierra cosworth  body) in the 80's & 90's done by amateurs for a 1 hour race with driver changes. This has now been created into a historic series again with all the old cars being put into various categories but paying public love this series and people want to see the cars racing fast etc, some people might know the name late Gerry Marshall and the car called "big bertha" that car racing in it but this car would not be likely racing in what you guys have now, but it even gets invited to Goodwood festival each year

We have NASCAR if that's what you like to see (crash & burn) type racing. I don't think anyone this side the pond beleives they will be the next Senna so there is no need to destroy what we have just to entertain the the spectators.
You can watch NASCAR on speed almost 24/7 to get your kicks.
Alan

never said anything about liking crashes and burn, you miss understood what i was saying. Racing cars are for racing, over there seems to be a liking too parading historic  racing cars not racing the cars. Here I would say they get to there full potential as the owners see them as just a racing car not its worth, ie $400,000 untouchable toys etc etc
Even if you destroy something most things can get fixed and racing is a entertainment, always has been. Public want to see action (that doesnt mean crashes just so you know) the speed, noise and most cases not single classed racecars of the modern era. They can also see a parade at mardi gras not at vintage meeting.

As for Senna, well met him alot of times and chatted and saw him race through the ranks in the uk and there definately been probably drivers ive seen, also met that I rank in a similar mould since his death, a couple who might in time surpass him.

Luckily we dont have nascar here  so its fine thanks, although i appreciate the skill of a nascar driver