Here is the battle with a BMW , RX7, and a Civic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV5r_0RHiTg

Thanks for posting Chris.

Too bad the video missed Adam taking out the tires. I really wanted to see that.

Here is my in-car from Saturday's CW1 that has Redavid's impact into the tire barrier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9Zd3K3KN-k

  Not sure if anyone else feels the same but that tire barrier seems to be a bit dangerous when reviewing the vid.  If Redavid missed the corner and blew through some cones, no biggie but when he hit the tires it brought them onto the track and left nowhere for Doodson and I to go.  Potentially a safety issue?


But the best video from last weekend by far is the B-spec racing feature!  We need to pump this one to everyone.  What a great presentation of our track and sport to anyone not aware of what we're doing out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewSF3KrRgCg

I was behind Chris and Dino and I can honestly say  being the 3rd car behind Adams spin , It was more difficult to navigate safely with Adam facing me and a tire wall on the track .....I managed it but it was a little unsettling ..just my 2 cents    Thx Todd #124

Sorry guys, I don't see the issue here.. What if Adam had slid his tail out coming through 6 and bounced the back of his car off the concrete wall and spun out between the 2 walls and blocked the track? I think it would have been even more unsettling to the drivers behind him with
their foot to the floor coming out of 6, than in a much more open area like 7b.

There are hazards and obstacles all over the track, and as drivers you are required to have the skill to navigate them at speed.The tire bundles are off the racing line, like any other object that surrounds the track. At least they are rubber, and not a solid, nearly immovable object like the concrete blocks that surround much of the track.

Unfortunately, we had far too many drivers treating the inside of 7B like a shortcut because it was paved and easy to drive over, and everyone knew they could get away with it for a couple of laps before being called in. Compared to some of the other options, the tires are the best option that seems to work.

My 2 cents.., oops no more pennies in Canada. ...my 5 cents...

I think it is worth noting that it was another drivers error that brought about the situation, not the tires.
The tire bundle is the lesser of many evils and it has worked very well this year.
As previously stated there are lots of hazards at a race track and it is up to you as a race driver to hone your skills to avoid them.
As a formula car driver I'm acutely aware of 'hard objects' at track side, the tires are just something else to drive around while trying to put in a good lap!

I will chime in because I was the driver faced with a moving tire bundle.
I like to think when a car spins in front of me , I can figure out where the car is heading and with enough time avoid him. add in a second large tire bundle moving around and now Im trying to figure out where two out of control things are going. Not to mention Im hard on the brakes and hoping to not get tagged from behind THIS WAS A BAD FEELING !

Hey Guys,

  I was in this race and faced the tire bundle unexpectedly too. I think the tires are a good idea and  necessary to stop the driving straight over the 2nd curb. If the bundle could be anchored with chains down the center, we could potentially avoid having the bundle out in the track where there is little room already.

Just a thought.............

From amateur to pro, cars sometimes get a little sideways. Adam's not the first or last to get lose through there.

I appreciate and understand that there are obstacles, and in a track like Mission, some are impossible to avoid. But I feel like the general rule in track design over the last.. decade (?) has been to eliminate things you can hit and increase run off, not add more stuff to hit.

I guess exclusively driving a formula car made me unaware that this corner was such a big problem. I don't see many open wheel cars cutting 7b on purpose..

I have, once or twice in the rain, blown 7a completely and ended up having to go straight over the 7b curb, exactly where the tires are now. It hurts, and I have the bent trailing arms to prove it, but with the new tire bundle, that would likely be the end of my season. Like you guys have mentioned, so would crashing into any of the numerous cement walls, but.. I'm not terribly excited about yet another opportunity to get into $$$ trouble.

Hello racers.
                this issue has been discussed many times,  A number of different methods have been tried to keep drivers from simply shortcutting the curbs and straight lining 7b.
  cones did not work, they were quickly scattered all over the place, although filling one with concrete was suggested. The "storm strips " were driven over, so now we have the tire bundle.
  The key is to have a deterant  but also have something that will not destroy or sevarley damage a car that hits them in event of a spin into 7b. The tires do work as a deterent  they do move when hit,  however anchoring them could cause a roll over if a car slides into them sideways.
   Perhaps we need tire spikes that puncture tires when rolled over but will lay flat if you slide over them? :o

I don't think tires should be used for anything more than safety barriers, if guys are cutting the corner then maybe we should look at putting a BIG BAJESUS SUPER HIGH curb there that will not be so nice on the car that goes across it.
Tires bundles that move into the racetrack are not the best solution and I think tieing the tires down may cause worse issues.

Sorry, but putting in a moving barrier can't be an option. You got lucky with this incident, not good. Had Dude hit the tires head on, there would have been very real damage to his car, and maybe to him.

How about just enforcing the rules, rolled up black flag the first time, flag them in the second time. I don't see a row of tires separating pit in, yet if you go four wheels over the painted line more than once, you will be flagged in, what is the difference?

Make the curb bigger (like Portland did at the end of the back straight) on the off season and people will get it without endangering the rest of the field, which is what this tire bundle is doing.

can't wait to see a pro3 race stop and start as they fix the tires 3-4 times a race.....with 36 cars on the track, you don't think 3-4 cars will be taken out?

Jeff

Tire bundles should only be used to protect drivers from impacting a dangerous immovable object. . Tracks all over the world are moving to paved runoff areas as they've proved to be the most effective way of scrubbing off speed before an impact. It seems counter intuitive to me that one would take a seemingly ideal corner with respect to safety and install a barrier that will undoubtably have countless impacts with possible dire consequences. Safety should supersede any perceived competitive advantage that we're trying to discourage.
There are many alternatives, some suggested above that could be deployed to discourage competitors from cutting the corner without adding safety concerns. Larger curbing is one, no one wants to punish the undercarriage of their race car.
Any addition that increases the possibility of an unsafe impact, which this clearly is as evidenced by the video footage, should be avoided and is untenable.

Thanks for listening

I think you guys need to watch a few more races; tires are used on the apex of corners all around the world, Infineon Raceway, Baltimore, Sydney, Darwin, Oulton Park, just for starters.
The fact is the system has worked very well all year except this one unusual incident ( the RX7 hitting the tires while completely sideways). The good news is the Curt curbs weren't there, they would probably have caused the car to roll!

I know we're not a pro racing series, but I was working the front straight in Baltimore in 2012.  There is a light rail line that bisects the track, in 2011 they built a chicane to slow the cars down.  In 2012 the promoter consulted the drivers and the consensus was they wanted to try it without the chicane.  After one session on Friday they knew they would have to put the chicane back in.  On Friday afternoon the built a chicane with tire bundles and only one ALMS car hit the tires in the afternoon.
Overnight they put in curbing and the cars started getting two wheels up on the curbing immediately, and before long cars were launching off the second set of curbing into the wall.  All except for the ALMS cars that is, the ALMS stewards put the tire bundles back out for their race and there was only one car in the wall, and that was on the opposite side of the track when a prototype put a Porche into the wall for unknown reasons.

On Sunday the Indycar Stewards put the tire bundles in the chicane and there were no further incidents of cars short cutting the 2nd corner and going into the wall.

This issue came up when I was on the executive, and one of the biggest problems with issuing penalties for short cutting the curbing would be the issue of fairness.  As short handed as we are for workers on most weekends, and as hard as the marshalls would try to catch everyone who short cut the corner, some would get called and some would not.  My argument was that this would lead to an inconsistancy in the penalty being reported.  If two or three cars went through in a row, the trailing cars would obscure the view of the marshalls in T7. 

Tire bundles may not be the perfect solution, but the other deterents have not been effective in keeping cars from short cutting the turn.  Bigger curbs could cause roll overs, nobody wants those either.

As someone who had been on Track Ops the last few years I can confirm that that many solutions were talked about for 7b. One of the things we have to take into consideration is that the area where 7a through 9 are is used as a paddock area for other events (drag racing and motocross) so our landlords (BCCCA) limit what permanent alterations we can make to that area – this rules out higher curbs and a host of other suggestions made in the past. IMHO the tire barriers are the best solution, they also have a lot of give when they aren’t against a wall, so I doubt there would have been significant damage to Doodson’s car (certainly far less damage than hitting another car). At Westwood cars regularly hit tire walls with little or no injury to drivers (I have actually experienced impact with a tire wall head on – although some idiot filled the tires with clay because they did not want them to move, so my car did sustain damage, however I was fine). Unfortunately at mission most our tire walls are backed up with less forgiving concrete barriers (the tires just cushion the blow with the concrete, they don’t eliminate it).

   I will check with Marc to see if we can put a remote transponder pick up on that side of the Inside of 7b. all CW cars would have to mount the transponder on the right side of the car ( OW cars don't do the shortcut)

RS

I hope you're kidding....

I won't get into the technicalities of why that won't work. but you could use an inductive loop that triggers a camera, much like a red light camera... but we won't be mailing the infraction to you. you'll have to talk to Pam.  ;)

Can this be self policed? If someone cuts the corner in front of you and you have video evidence, protest it. Sure, it'll turn into a bitching fest, but it should be fun for a while!

Hitting a tire wall takes place off of the regular racing surface, not on it. I don't disagree with the tire bundle, I just don't think it safe or prudent to let it move onto the racing surface. fastening it down would be the safest option in my opinion. Hit it, damage your car, but it won't end up on the racing surface for some one to either hit, stop to avoid and be hit, or take evasive manouvers and hit or be hit by someone/something else.

Yes,  these exist on other race tracks around the world (I do watch allot of racing), but are you sure they are loose and not fastened in place?

Before making statements that minimizes the estimated damage to a car, please take the time to calculate the force of impact, you WILL be surprised, I sure was. I do know what it would do to one of our cars, its over $2500 just in fiber glass, coolers and tin. Want to guess what it would be for an open wheel car?

I know its a tough item to fix, and I know many things have been tried, but in my opinion, which may be in the minority, it could use some improvement to eliminate the possibility of this 600lb (est 30 tires at 20lb per tire) item from getting on the racing surface due to contact. Safety before all else.

BTW, have there been allot of protests about cutting 7B? I have seen the pit in line addressed in the supps, but don't recall 7B mentioned, but I totally could have missed it....

Flaaaaaammmme ON!

Jeff

Hello All    We may be able to secure the bundle by a rope " leash" . such that if hit by a siding car it would move back and swing away from the track via the anchor point which would be 10 to 15 feet to the inside of the turn. this way the bundle would not be able to pushed onto the track surface

rs

Interesting idea, but the rope is a hazard if a car straight lines the corner. How about just mounting through the bottom tires into some flush mount anchors into the concrete/asphalt? easily removed and reinstalled if you put the bolts back in to keep debris out of the anchor hole. Steel band with a hole in it should keep the bolt from ripping through the tire at the bottom. You still have allot of give in the tires, they just wont move onto the racing surface as a unit.
I will even come out and assist the install and make up the steel.

Input?

Jeff

I don't mind the rope idea

The problem with securing the bundle to the ground is the potential to flip a car that hits them sliding sideways.

then how about a short 4' tether?

Motorcyclists call ropes and such "cheese graters". I'll leave it to your imagination how an open wheeler and a rope could meet the same description.

Vancouver Indy had chicanes that one could have circumvented, but the used a row of tires running perpendicular to the apex but they were only one tire high. Very effective without seriously damaging a car or worse.

For those who have pictures of Indy it was the last chicane before the pit straights, check it out.

Here

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I think everyone who thinks the tires are a problem should give there heads a shake. If you are that intimidated by the tires being there the you mite want to get out of racing because there are alot more dangerous spots on the track then that.
It seems to me you are suppose to adjust your speed & braking points to get around things not pretend they aren't there.
Does this mean the tires should be moved in turn 3 because we get a little close to them. :'(

:)I do not have a problem with the tire bundle at 7b I have a problem with tires flying in front of  me that really should not be needed ...but for a few who cut corners   .....I do not have the answer , but the idea of tires  flying front of me at speed   bothers me more than drivers straight lining 7a and 7b   Just seems to me that safety should come before any thing else .. Just a note I love racing and will race with or without the tires  and I am not complaining just one man's opinion  Thank you   Todd # 124 :) and for the record  I have not seen anyone straight line there .... so is there  really  that a big  problem  with people straight lining   7a and 7b that  we need to have the tires at all ?

ya, I have issues with the dangers of racing.....sure.

We are all trying to find a constructive solution to the problem of tire bundles finding their way on track, not that the tires are there in the first place. if there is a valid reason for them to be there, and there must be, otherwise they wouldn't be, I have no problem with them being there. 

I do think it is a valid question, is cutting 7b really a big issue? other than ruining an alignment and suspension damage, are people complaining of an unfair advantage, or are we worried about damage to the track and driver safety (all valid issues by the way).

Alan, Probably not a good idea to call drivers out on the forum, especially when you don't know them or their experience level. Your point would have been better served without it.

Jeff

"Alan, Probably not a good idea to call drivers out on the forum, especially when you don't know them or their experience level. Your point would have been better served without it."

Agreed, takes good discussion and raises a couple levels.

I like the solution in the photo from Indy. I'm sure we could come up with a series of tires strapped together and a couple of short tethers on the ground to keep things in place. 1 high stack of tires will do a lot less damage than the current stack and still provide ample incentive to drivers not to cut the corner.

---

That works for me...

I like the idea as well, would love it if we could get rid of the forward tether, just can't see how.

Great idea!

Jeff

Can we not just find a way to enforce the rules and eliminate the tires all together . I think it would be  safer to have that area open to use as a run off  in case of brake or mechanical  failure or even as an area for evasive maneuvers in case of a spin or contact in front of you . Sometimes you may have  no where else to go ... safety first . I would hate to be in an open wheel car and hit the tire bundle . it could be very painful and at the very least expensive .IF PEOPLE WOULD STOP CUTTING 7A AND 7B  WE WOULD NOT NEED THE TIRE BUNDLE  . WHAT HAPPENED TO HONOR AND INTEGRITY  .HOW CAN YOU ENJOY WINNING KNOWING YOU CHEATED BY CUTTING THE COURSE ! STOP THE CHEATERS AND THERE IS NO  NEED FOR THE TIRE BUNDLE .ENFORCE THE TRACK RULES ...NO MORE PROBLEM ! p.s  I will race with or without the tie bundle as my love for the sport is growing each and  every race weekend ..you could put a cement wall there and I am still racing ! I love this sport and mission raceway and all the people at the track  .. I greatly  appreciate everyone that makes it possible and safe  for me and everyone else to race .  Safety,  should always be our main concern not people cutting corners . :)

The whole reason the tires are there now is because the Exec and Stewards have been trying for years to get drivers to stop cutting the corner. Nothing has worked so far and this is now where we are. We will need to live with something there; it's just  matter of figuring out what will work the best.

Some drivers couldn't seem to obey the rules, so as per usual they spoil it for everyone else. It was causing a lot of additional radio calls that interfered with more important communications between the corners and Race Control.

If anyone feels they are being called out on the forum and thinks that this isn't the place obviously missed the point.
If you can't learn how to drive around the tires by adjusting your entry regardless of your experience then you shouldn't be on the track.
So every time someone screws up we have to run out spend more money and time because they don't get the message.
With all the money thats been spent moving wall and widdening the track hasn't changed anything if you go off and hit the wall do we have to run out and buy air fences.
It's a dangerous hobby if you are intimidated by it it may not be for you. Whats next bubble wrap our cars.
If some one keeps running into the tires suspend them for 2 races they will get the message, if they don't then suspend them for a year. :'(

Why let a few cheaters spoil it for the rest  and an extra hazard and safety issue ..when 7a and 7b is  one of the safest corners on the track with lots of room for error  !  Enforce the rules and put safety first ! As Stated before by someone else , no one is allowed to put 4 wheels over the pit entry line , and is not tolerated  . Is a busy intercom system  more important then safety ? Stop the cheaters   ! It cost a fair amount of money too do repairs due to a tire bundle being bounced in front of you and not to mention possible injury. I get it accidents happen and so do mistakes which can happen any where  on the track ,which  makes it all that more important  ,not to  add a extra hazard due  to cheaters ..punish them and we do not need the tire bundle on the track  at all  ! Again Safety should be first !

It is not about driving around tires and  adjusting your entry  ,   when a mistake happens  ( and we all make them ) and what can happen after the fact !  It is about  adding extra hazards on the track. All  because of a few who cut corners.  Just suspend the cheaters who cut 7a And 7b  no more issue .Suspensions for hitting the tire bundle? Is that  any different then suspensions for hitting the cone ?  At least the cone is safer !  We do not allow  4 wheels over the pit entry line. Why can it not be enforced the same way? Everyone  will race regardless of the tire bundle . We all accept the risks of racing and that accidents happen and  that we could be seriously injured .  But why  add  the extra hazard  because people  who cut corners?

Out of curiosity I re-watched the video that brought about this whole conversation.

An experienced driver makes a mistake by entering the corner all wrong, then locks up the brakes while trying to turn the corner and hits the tires sideways!

Nobody got hurt and I don't think anyone else even hit the tires or any cars sustained any damage.
We need to redesign the track for this complete NON event; what nonsense!!
How many hundreds of times this year have racers passed those tires without hitting them?

And Al is right, if you can't drive around the corners without hitting something then take up knitting, it's much safer ;).
And for those of you that turn up once a year of less, I don't think you should be suggesting changes anyway.
And one last point I have not seen any of the people suggesting changes working at the track for a loooong time. >:(

We were lucky it was a none issue this time . It is not about being able to drive around the tire bundle . It  is the off chance  like with Adam  that the tires come on the track . I say again why do we conform to cheaters the curb is there so stay on the track ! I also do not think it a good idea to discourage  a topic  just because you disagree and then make comments about other peoples abilities  to drive or attend races  on a regular basis . I am new here and I understand that , but ,I am a sccbc member and  I have a  have an opinion  weather you agree with it or not.   Not such a  friendly way to treat new members by the way .  . We were fine last year with out the tire bundle ...is there really that many cheaters that we need it now ?         P.S.I have been to every race since my first novice race and do not plan on missing a single race ....So I guess you are stuck with me and my opinions

My apologies if I offended anyone, just trying to have a constructive discussion. In my opinion, racing around dubious hazards does not make anyone more of a race car driver than anyone who wishes to better the situation.
Frequency racing at Mission has little or nothing to do with the discussion, on the contrary, I would think it an asset in that a more rounded perspective can be offered. I know, we make it out to every ICSCC event in Mission, and have for the past 10 or so years, but we also make it to all of the other tracks in the region, racing at least 9-10 events per year (not including the Portland and 25 hour endure at Thunderhill). My opinion, as any other from racers, corner workers, etc. that may not make it out of the area, all are of value and, again in my opinion, should be viewed with respect.

I may be misinformed, but isn't the reason for the 7a-7b complex because the sanctioning body (FIA?) was concerned with the existing berm outside of turn 8, and would not allow the track configuration as originally designed? So, is the argument that because no one was allowed to hit the berm, the sanctioning body was wrong in it's decision? Do we have to wait until something, that we can logically see potential in, to happen before action is taken the rectify the situation? Does a driver have to attend every race at Mission and be an SCCBC member to voice a concern and offer constructive discussion points?

IF the corner workers find the issue immposible to deal with from a sanctioning point of view, than I like the one tire high idea, or maybe some removable plastic curbing perpendicular to the track. JUST MY OPINION.

Jeff

and by the way, it's not the driver hitting the tires that is of concern, it's the tires ending up in the middle of the track for the next guy who is ON the track that hit's them that is the issue. Read the posts, it's pretty clear.

Leave the tires, keep them off the track if the get hit. If they cant be made to stay where they are if hit, remove them or come up with a different solution. Racing around tires and berries has never been the point!!!
it's having them end up on the racing surface that is.

jeff

Well said  Jeff !

So the car that's pointed the wrong way on the track because he blew the enty is less of a danger to the 2nd & 3rd car than the tires.
As long as man is alive there will be as you say cheaters that will bend the rules which means the rest of the world pays the price.
There is plenty of run off room in that era to avoid any tires that mite get moved.

Like Sterling Moss said the more safety gear is giving the more invincibly drivers think they are thats why there is so much crash and burn driving today.

I hope the exec puts  an end to this and say the tires stay as is no more changes that's the way it is enough of the crying now. :'(

No one is crying or adding any safety gear  Allan .We are voicing concern over the possibility of tires coming  on to the track after they are hit period ! It has nothing to do with cars on the track or any of our abilities to maneuver  around a spinning car  which Chris and Dino and myself did ! Most of us can predict which way a car will spin ...a tire bundle bounces around like a football you do not know where it will bounce or stop .. Did you read the posts at all ? You really should stop the name calling !

Ladies and Gentlemen;

I think we've pretty much covered this and I will make sure the Exec has a transcript of this thread for the Exec meeting. Having been involved in many oi the meetings about this exact issue, I can tell you the tires are not going away, however, there may be some room for how they are configured, and possibly tethered.

Let's let the Exec have a look at this again and see what comes of it.

Thank you all for your postings.

Marc

I am sure the exec and the race stewards will do what they think is right, based on the conditions of the track and the input of the membership.

Leaving for the triple in Spokane ( that's in Washington, 7 hours away) now, everyone have a nice weekend. I know that we will!

Jeff
Www.retroracingteam.com

Have a great time and good Luck Jeff ! 

Just returned from 'The 36' Chumpcar enduro at Spokane, fun track, great race, good people.
We finished 29th out of 49 starters but I think everyone who finished the longest enduro in North America considered themselves a winner!!! :D

Finishing a 36 hour race is an accomplishment all on its own ...finishing 29th is awesome ! great job all involved  Congratulations for a job well done ! :)    I bet it was a blast !

lots of good points for both sides, my humble opinion there is the potential for a serious chain reaction event to happen there if the tire bundle suddenly ends up in front of a freight train of cars. not sure about tethering the tires though, but in my limited experience the only cars I see "regularly" cutting 7b are the pro3 guys that show up for conference races, I think what is more important  is the "regular" 4 wheels over the pit entrance line, don't know If anyones been warned and or penalized this year but ive seen it happen allot the last two race weekends from inside my car and spectating,  sketchy to say the least from either view point.