When I purchased my race car I was told that it is a legal IP3 race car (and it is). After checking the rules, the most notable item that popped out at me from the rule book was :

"no component or part normally found on a stock example of a given vehicle may be disabled, altered or removed..."

Of course further to that we also have the following:

"...protest against a car, that is for example, based on the absence of a valve cap or a cigar lighter, will be deemed vexatious..."


Ok, I am in agreement with the last statement. But how far does the limit of "vexatious" go?


Being a rather heavy driver, I search for ways to lighten the car (yes, including eating a few less cheesburgers >:(  ) by removing useless parts but never did because I was constantly told that would make my car illegal....


So I ask the gurus of the TECH world... What parts would fall under the category of "vexatious"? For example, I still have in the car the rear windshield wiper motor, windshield washer fluid bottle and those hydraulic pistons that hold up my rear hatch because they are "parts normally found on a stock example".


I don't see these parts on a few of the other cars..... are they still legal?

I would appreciate some clarification on these matters.

Thanks



:)  

In my opinion, those cars that you are refering to are illegal, but it's not up to tech to make that call. Anything outside of safety equipment is policed by being protested by other drivers.

So unless someone is willing to call out another driver as a cheater, and file a protest, people are more or less free to do whatever their concience (or lack thereof) permits.

The system sucks, but there it is.

Richard

If one protests a car for having an unfair competitive advantage because it's missing a 3oz cigarette lighter it may be considered "vexatious". However, if a vehicle is missing the lighter, along with a wiper motor and perhaps some other components then I would warn you that you would be in a position to be protested without a defendable position. You were well advised not to remove parts to lighten your car. But I wouldn't protest someone if the knob on their heater was missing. This comment in the rule book is asking everyone to use common sense as we all are keenly aware when we cross the line, even though we tend to pretend we don't.

Ok, some examples (my opinion only, all examples are for Improved Production cars):

- Missing headlight allowing cold air to the engine intake?  Not vexatious, in my opinion.  I'm still faster on the straights than the guy doing this, so I haven't felt the need to bother protesting.
- Lexan side windows, but car is still above minimum weight?  Illegal, but I wouldn't bother protesting it.  Below minimum weight?  Protest.  This brings up another issue.  Do we even have scales available for CACC events, if a minimum weight protest happens?  I can't remember ever taking my car across the scales at a CACC event.
- Cams, porting, high compression pistons, etc.  If I knew for sure that somebody was running them, I'd protest.  It's very hard to tell in practice without seeing the motor apart, so stuff like this is really up to the conscience of the guy that puts the motor together.

Maybe after the last race of the season we can all do show and tell with the insides of our motors!  :).

Anyway, a couple conclusions:

- If you see somebody doing something you think is illegal and it bothers you, talk it over with them!  Sometimes people don't know what they're doing is illegal, or they think nobody cares.  Talk to them and try to settle things without having to throw paper.
- If you can't settle the matter, put in the protest!  Don't expect somebody else to do it for you, and don't expect tech to investigate without you asking them to.  They aren't police, they're judges.

Read the SCCA rules for IT cars. They will tell you what you are allowed to remove, modify etc.
The duties of the Scrutineer(s) are not limited to safety items. Vehicle eligibility for the class they are enterd in is also part of the duties.

From the CACC GCR:
9.6 Scrutineer
A. Ensures the inspection for eligibility of all cars prior to the first track session and at any other subsequent time.

B. Reports to the clerk of the course the results of pre-race inspections and any subsequent inspections.

C. Inspects any cars damaged during track sessions.

D. Report to the clerk of the course any vehicle that is found not to conform to the requirements of the regulations.

E. The Scrutineer may re-inspect any and all vehicles that may become unsafe at any time during the event and conducts technical inspections at the request of the clerk of the course.

F. The Scrutineer shall not communicate any official information to any other person than the clerk of the course or steward.

trackrat, yes, for ICSCC races they have the scales out.  Typically the top 3 finishers in each class are required to be weighed after the race or be disqualified.  If you aren't sure if you finished top 3, go across the scales anyway just to be sure!

It isn't that the ICSCC rules themselves are more strict, only that they're a little more vigilant in enforcing them than we typically are.

TECHMAN, I find what you said very interesting.  I was under the impression that tech would only look at class legality if a protest was filed.  If tech is supposed to look at class legality during pre-race inspection, why are some cars that are obviously not legal (missing headlight ducting air to the engine) passed?

- Jordy

The scales will be out for the next CACC race. I hope by about 10 AM on Saturday for those of you wanting to check the weight of your vehicle.
The ICSCC race will probably have scales. Their rules require that the top three cars in class be weighed at the end of the race.
The first Cacc race was busy doing Annual Tech inspections. This usually was only to check safety items and quick visuals of the cars. Remember that cars may also comply with CACC rule 18.4.E
There is a choice. SCCA IT rules or CACC 18.4.E
not a combination.

18.4 Classification

E. All CACC registered Improved Production cars with a log book issued prior to June 1st, 2008 shall be allowed to compete in the class but must conform to the
published 2007 CACC Improved Production rules. This shall be noted in the vehicle logbook and dated by the Chief Scrutineer.

Possibly a better way to ask this would be in person, of a fellow racer, and with a smile on your face. Attitude goes a long way and sometimes, in spite of our best intentions, the internet doesn't allow us to ask questions or comment on something without it being taken the wrong way.

You can always query an official of any sanctioning body if you think someone isn't following the letter of the law. Ask a question or two first, see if the other guy will show you the part/parts in question. Rather than write up a protest, and pay the fee, leave that final resort for last.

8)

I agree Sign_Guy, I am not posting all this to be mean spirited but my understanding is we should be following the rules, which I believe is true.....

Tech mentioned the rule below:

18.4 Classification

E. All CACC registered Improved Production cars with a log book issued prior to June 1st, 2008 shall be allowed to compete in the class but must conform to the
published 2007 CACC Improved Production rules.

Can we get further clarification on this? are the 2007 rules different than the 2009 or 2010 rules?

Plainly speaking, are there a loopholes? Because my car has a logbook issued prior to the aforementioned date....

The 2007 rules were not based on the SCCA IT rules. There were some things the same, but many things different.

I don't have a copy of the 2007 CACC Race Regs, but back in 2007 I made a list of the differences between our then-current IP rules and the then-current SCCA IT rules:

1. In IP front license plates and brackets must be removed, no ruling in IT.
2. In IP headlights may be removed and the openings covered, prohibited in IT.
3. In IP the steering lock mechanism may be removed, in IT it must be removed.
4. In IP removal of door windows and mechanisms is allowed, in IT it is only allowed if "NASCAR-style" side protection is used.
5. In IP removal of door interior trim is allowed, in IT it is only allowed if a 0.060" aluminum sheet is used to cover the openings.
6. In IP removal of the door side impact beams is allowed, prohibited in IT.
7. In IP turn signals, fog and and accessory driving lights may be removed, prohibited in IT.
8. In IP there is no minimum ride height, in IT the minimum ride height is 5 inches as measured from the lowest point of the rocker panel.
9. In IP there is no restriction on wheel width, in IT there is.
10. In IP wheel size may be increased or decreased up to 2" from stock size, in IT wheel sizes are more restricted.
11. In IP brake calipers, rotors, and hubs are unrestricted, in IT they must be stock.
12. In IP any brake proportioning valve may be used, in IT only proportioning valves of certain types may be used.
13. In IP bumper grilles may be removed to facilitate brake cooling, in IT this is not permitted.
14. In IP turbocharged/supercharged cars are eligible to compete, in IT they are not.
15. In IP air intakes may be relocated anywhere, in IT they may be moved anywhere inside the engine bay or remain in the stock location.

I believe that under the old rules, directing air through a headlight opening to the engine intake was not legal.

If anybody has a link to the 2007 rules for those of us that don't have access to them anymore, that would be much appreciated.

- Jordy

No worries Rob, my comment was only meant to say that we've all gotten away from personal contact in the electronic age.

I've also been the victim of rules creep and seen other same-class cars run without class-designated parts. It's frustrating but in my case I can only blame myself for not asking.


Lorne.

I believe the 2007 CACC IP rules were the same as the 2006 rules. I have not been able to find a 2007 only rule book. I seem to remember that there was no new 2007 rule book, only green sheets to update the 2006 book. Lorne may a better memory of this.
I have a copy of the 2006 book. I scanned the IP pages.
If someone needs a copy of these let me know. I'll send them to you as a PDF.

ok after several tries responding to this, deleting my draft and then trying again the next day I feel ready to comment (only after Jordy ruled on lexan windows...).  The rules are way too complicated for a person who is trying to decide on a class and a car.  Two suggestions:

1. Lets create classes based on power to weight.
2. Lets get a bunch of folks together, agree on a make and model and run stock or close to it.  

I think we all liked the Honda/Michelin.  Spec Miata?  Yugo?

Ryan

What I posted wasn't a "ruling", it was an opinion on a hypothetical situation.  Not sure why that in particular was worth a comment.

TECHMAN wrote on Apr 15^th, 2010 at 5:59am:

I believe the 2007 CACC IP rules were the same as the 2006 rules. I have not been able to find a 2007 only rule book. I seem to remember that there was no new 2007 rule book, only green sheets to update the 2006 book. Lorne may a better memory of this. I have a copy of the 2006 book. I scanned the IP pages. If someone needs a copy of these let me know. I'll send them to you as a PDF.

Please send me the PDF, many thanks.

robdyck@yahoo.com

I agree some IP3 cars are quicker than others  ??? but it hard to judge cars based on a standing start.
You really must look at a few different things when it comes to a standing start and YES driver skill is a big part along with using all the power you have and putting it to the ground and stopping the car in the most effective way.  
Im not saying all those IP3 car are legit. but its really hard to police such things as small engine mods ......

You will never get every IP3 Honda car the same.

The best way to find out if you are getting all that your car has to offer,  is too find a very skilled driver who can push your car to the limits and compare info on a data aquisition system.  You would be supprised how far some people can push a car into braking and still make the corner.

Of course this still may mean the guy with the IP3 car and a cam shaft may be faster ;)

'cause your other problem was you got stuck behind me ::)!
Jr and Nixon are very aggresive semi pro drivers; like Dude says let someone else driver your car that will tell you what you have to work on next, the car or... ;)!

No winking needed my friend....I KNOW my driving needs work.....



;) ;) ;)

I choose the wrong tires for that race and 'yes it was' and 'probably'.
We could swap cars for a practice session and that would tell us something, probably that we both need 20 more horsepower and a visit to Jim Russell ;D.

A couple notes:

- Yes Rob, your car is legal.  However, I've pointed out to you a number of areas where you can improve it and still be legal.  Work on them instead of worrying about what everybody else is doing to their cars.  We have a month and a half before the next race weekend and I have a bit of free time coming up in September, so lets make one or two of the improvements I've suggested to you.

- Rob, you were braking very early and driving conservatively.  Morris Jr. was not.  In corner 1 you were on the brakes and slowing down before *both* cars ahead of you started doing so.  In corner 3 you were on the brakes well before marker 5.  Tony was pretty much beside you at marker 4 when he started slowing down.  On the exit of 3, Morris Jr. got on the throttle almost a second ahead of you, plus he carried more speed through the corner.  Under those circumstances of course he's going to out accelerate you.

The Honda challenge was meant to be a good race due to the fact that most of the HC2 /  IP3 cars (CRX's /civic's) should all be in the same HP range , give or take 10 HP between a good new engine and an older one.  

You can ask Martin Berryman about how many power mods he had tryed on his CRX when he owned it , and how little power most of them made.  I'm sure he would tell you that learning to be a better driver would be a far better place to spend some time and money.

Please remember that both Nixon and Morris Jr. have driven alot of different cars around that track than most.
Both of these people are good places to obtain information regarding your driving lines and techniques.
Might not be free info but its good info ;)

Not arguing that for a second.....


Back on to original topic?

 I Think Keith's tires were heat cycled out and his shock settings were way off ;).  

Rob Dyck wrote on Aug 19^th, 2010 at 10:33am:

Not arguing that for a second..... ;) ;)

So if he out-drove you and you know it, why are you posting in the tech forum implying that his car is not legal?

Well, this thread went from my questions of legalities to my own teammate putting me down..... #%@* me what a day....

Between that and the private threats I have received that if I decided to "get smart" , implications were made that my "stuff" would get messed with......

Nice!

So getting back on topic......

I started with a simple frickin' question that nobody seems to really want to deal with:

"What parts would fall under the category of "vexatious"? For example, I still have in the car the rear windshield wiper motor, windshield washer fluid bottle and those hydraulic pistons that hold up my rear hatch because they are "parts normally found on a stock example".  

I don't see these parts on a few of the other cars..... are they still legal?"


Sheesh.....I would have been happy with a yes or no....

Rob Dyck wrote on Aug 9^th, 2010 at 6:27pm:

Please send me the PDF, many thanks. robdyck@yahoo.com

I still would like a copy of that PDF please.

Thank you.

lol you can't escape racing politics anywhere....

::) ;D

Rob,
Legal is relative. I'm not trying to obfuscate the question on the table, but I am trying my best to give you good advice. There is a line in the rule book that escapes me, but to paraphrase, it speaks to the intent of the protest of an illegal car. The purpose of the rule is to prevent protests of factors that really would not have changed the outcome of the race. In other words, the rules don't say you can remove the cigarette lighter. But if you were to protest your fellow competitor at a local race for a $3 trophy, the protest would not be carried, even though, in the letter of the rule book one could argue it's illegal to remove the lighter. So your comment of the hatch shocks or the wash bottle would be weak. However, if the race were for a National Championship and the lap times were within a tenth of a second of other competitors I would make sure those items were in. Then again, if you feel your fellow competitor at a local race is running high compression pistons and or cams, and you have the money to put down for a protest, then it would be taken seriously.
Hope in some strange way this helps you understand.

I guess I was looking at the rulebook in a way that was obviously too black and white....

"no component or part normally found on a stock example of a given vehicle may be disabled, altered or removed..."


But the world has become a "the maximum LIMIT is 100 so obviously I can go 109...112....115.....or?????


Ok, I'll drop it,  I can live in the gray.......... ;)

I was asked why we dont remove the front passenger seat from the acura. Even though this IS within the rules my answer was :

" How much faster do you think that will make you? "

And that in a nut shell is what the stewarts are going to be considering if there were a protest for a washer bottle, lighter, or rear hatch shock mounts.  

Just take them out if you think it will help.

This was copied from the 2010 CACC General Competiton Regulations (GCR's), Section 12.1

12.1 Inquiries
A. A steward (or another official designated for the purpose) shall be available
at the event to receive written inquiries. A written record shall be made of
all enquiries, including the date and time received, as well as a summary of
their content. The enquiry shall then be passed to the organiser (or another
official designated for the purpose) for disposition.
B. Any inquiry from a competitor concerning their time or placing must be
submitted within thirty (30) minutes of the time it was posted.
C. Any other type of inquiry from a competitor must be submitted within thirty
(30) minutes of the completion of the last official timed run.
D. Inquiries must refer to the pertinent section of the appropriate regulations.

And under Section 13 (Protests), item G & H it says:
G. Hearsay, conjecture and unsupported opinion may be considered vexatious.
H. Protests that are deemed not well founded may also be vexatious and may be
denied. In such instances the protest fee shall be retained and further
penalties may be applied.

When in doubt, go to the rule book. You can ask questions of organizing officials without going the protest route