SCCBC Forum - IT instead of IP?

Jordy Isaak

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IT instead of IP?
Nov 9^th, 2011 at 5:41am

Branching this off from the other discussion because it's a bit of a tangent.

How do people feel about the possibility of replacing our IP classes with SCCA IT classes plus an ITE class, like ICSCC does?

Advantages:

- As far as I can tell, no cars that ran last year get left out.
- More even distribution of cars, so the club championship will be less likely to be dominated by one class (IP3).
- Way more choices for competitive cars.
- Some cars that currently are not competitive end up in classes where they can be competitive (IP2 Ford Escort to ITA, for example).

Disadvantages:

- No place for the PRO3 guys to play unless we add a PRO3 class.
- Cars that have IP legal mods like big brake kits will have to revert those mods to be legal in IT. This is a big problem, and I don't really have a good answer for it. I don't think allowing mods in addition to the IT legal mods will work if we go to IT classing.
- More classes with the same amount of cars running, so more entry dilution.
- Pretty much all the CRX/Civic Si cars would have to install ballast to run in ITA.

I'm kind of on the fence on this myself, so any and all input is appreciated.

Looking at all the cars that raced in IP last year, here's how the entries would end up (I removed IP entries that were clearly not legal for the class, like the RX7s that raced in IP2 for the first one or two races. Also, because I don't know year/trim level of some cars I was unable to determine their class, I've listed them under the "X or Y" class headings):

ITE
?? Corvette Z06/Chris Chamberlain/94

ITE or ITR
?? BMW 330i/David Dalmonte/99
?? Nissan 300ZX/Eric Stanley/36
?? Chevrolet Camaro/Peter Weedon/725
?? Ford Mustang LX/David Warren/58
?? Porsche 944/Lorne Andras/701

ITR
'97 Integra Type-R/Duncan Fairclough/86
'92 BMW 325is/Glenn Mueller/50
'97 Integra Type-R/Jared Powell-Williams/13
'01 S2000/Garry Bone/46
'88 BMW M3/??/??

ITR or ITS
?? Porsche 911/Mark Westlake/9

ITS
'92 Integra GS-R/Jordan Isaak/07
'92 Integra GS-R/Amir Kani/
'95 Del Sol VTEC/Curt Storms/112
'98 Integra GS-R/Lester Soman/72
?? Mazda RX-7/Kale Swifts/51
'92 Integra GS-R/Paul Bunbury/35
'92 Integra GS-R/Jonathan Ip/83

ITA
'89 CRX Si/Amir Kani/13
'90 Civic Si/Cory Wong/19
'89 CRX Si/Curt Storms/12
'89 Civic Si/Jason Nash/18
'89 CRX Si/Norm Berard/74
'89 Civic Si/Gayle Baird/62
'89 Civic Si/Steve Hocaluk/24
'89 Civic Si/Keith Robinson/4
?? Ford Escort/Renee Berard/075 (Unsure on this one, is it a 91-95 with the 1839cc or a 98-00 ZX2?)
'90 CRX Si/Arvid Isaak/77
?? Volkswagen Scirocco/Richard Boysen/288
'89 CRX Si/Tim Rosche/168

ITC
'85 Civic/Paul Bunbury/35 [Corrected, previously listed in ITB]

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« Last Edit: Nov 9^th, 2011 at 8:22am by Jordy Isaak »

#07
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TECHMAN Ex Member	Re: IT instead of IP? Reply #1 - Nov 9^th, 2011 at 5:44am Pro3 can run in ITE as can cars with bigger brakes.
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Honda_Hatchie

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Re: IT instead of IP?
Reply #2 - Nov 9^th, 2011 at 7:45am

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

With all due respect Jordy, you were the one proposing getting rid of IP4 because of low entries. If we adopt IT rules, theoretically, ITS could have as low as 3 entries (you, Curt, Amir) on a given weekend. Paul has another car, Jonathan doesn't run every weekend, etc....

The 3 of you run at the front anyhow, so what would be the advantage of splitting the classes for you?

You said earlier that people choose to run a certain class. You are absolutely right, as many of us choose to run IP3 because of the class size. Wouldn't it be better to have 12 - 14 cars in IP3 instead of 5 -6?

Cheers,

Jay

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Jordy Isaak

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Re: IT instead of IP?
Reply #3 - Nov 9^th, 2011 at 7:59am

Good input, Jay.

Splitting classes this way is a *disadvantage* to me, yes. I'm not putting this out there because I think I'll have a personal gain from it - it's actually the opposite. I'm putting it out there because I think that maybe in the long run the advantages I listed will outweigh the disadvantages *for the club as a whole*.

But I'm not sure about it, which is why I want feedback.

Again, thanks for the input, and keep it coming

.

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bunracer

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Re: IT instead of IP?
Reply #4 - Nov 9^th, 2011 at 8:08am

Just a clarification, my 85 Civic I think ends up in ITC, Jordy and I'm OK with that obviously. But I think it's easier to leave IP alone and let everybody keep their IP legal mods on the cars. Going to IT rules will shift things around a bit that's true and might give our ICSCC neighbours more of a reason to come up and race with us any weekend but is that enough of a reason to make this change ? Just asking.

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Jordy Isaak

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Re: IT instead of IP?
Reply #5 - Nov 9^th, 2011 at 8:22am

My mistake on the ITC Civic, I'll update that in the list.

Good point Paul, it *is* a very big change to make.

I'm getting the sense that if we didn't have IP already, the IP vs. IT decision would be an easy one - IT. But because the existing IP cars comprise the largest class in the club, making the change is a much more difficult decision.

Again, thanks for the feedback and keep it coming

.

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Mike_the_Oldest

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Re: IT instead of IP?
Reply #6 - Nov 9^th, 2011 at 9:50am

I guess you've proven a point for me. If we "talk" about these things enough, they solve themselves.

My own opinion, FWIW, is to leave the IP classes alone, as they are, with maybe some subtle changes where required. Then add IPE (same as SCCA ITE) as that catch-all class.

That's just my own opinion, mind you.

I will be proposing the IPE class at the forthcoming CACC General Meeting.

Please come out and vote on this stuff.

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jrez

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Re: IT instead of IP?
Reply #7 - Nov 9^th, 2011 at 9:44pm

More even distribution of cars, so the club championship will be less likely to be dominated by one class (IP3).
- Way more choices for competitive cars.
- Some cars that currently are not competitive end up in classes where they can be competitive (IP2 Ford Escort to ITA, for example)

These are exactly the reasons I'd support a switch to IT rules. The reclassification would also apply to my car, also making it more competitive.
Diversity in competitive car choice is sorely lacking with the current Ip rules for most anything not Honda. I chuckled when the "honda challenge" came into being because thats what most race weekends are at Mission anyway, and that the reason why I try to make the ICSCC weekends. The car classing is realistic.

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1984 #777 Scirocco IP2(LOL) &&1985 M52 BMW 3 series&&1973 Super Beetle auto-x&&2005 Ford Powerstroke&&

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TECHMAN Senior Racer Offline Road racing, not street racing! It's safer Posts: 166	Re: IT instead of IP? Reply #8 - Nov 10^th, 2011 at 3:35am Club championship and Cacc rules are two totally different things.
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Jordy Isaak

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Re: IT instead of IP?
Reply #9 - Nov 10^th, 2011 at 4:05am

But because you get a half point extra for each car you finish ahead of, the bigger classes get a significant advantage in the club championship.

For example, I was able to tie for 4th in the club championship this year despite having 2 DNFs and a DNS. Tracey got the same amount of points as I did, but she actually finished every race, if I remember correctly, plus she had more wins than me (again, if I remember correctly).

There's no way I would have been up that far if I wasn't getting 13-15 points for a win vs 10-11 for Tracey.

Or for another example, look at the winner of the club championship over the last few years. When was the last time it wasn't an IP3 car? When was the last time that 3 or more of the top 5 cars weren't IP3?

If a rule change (somewhat) balances out the number of cars in each class, it would make it conceivable for a car from a different class to win.

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#07
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Mike_the_Oldest International License Offline Posts: 853 B.C.	Re: IT instead of IP? Reply #10 - Nov 10^th, 2011 at 4:24am See TECHMAN's post: *Club championship and Cacc rules are two totally different things.*
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Jordy Isaak Pro Circuit Offline Really, how hard can it be? Posts: 311	Re: IT instead of IP? Reply #11 - Nov 10^th, 2011 at 5:04am Yes, but my point is that despite them being two totally different things, one of them has a very significant effect on the other. That is all.
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TECHMAN Ex Member	Re: IT instead of IP? Reply #12 - Nov 10^th, 2011 at 7:50am Change the Club championship rules! They currently allow for the IT classes and Icscc events.
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