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Legal or not....that's the question.... (Read 18,928 times)
Rob Dyck
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Legal or not....that's the question....
Apr 11th, 2010 at 7:13am
 
When I purchased my race car I was told that it is a legal IP3 race car (and it is). After checking the rules, the most notable item that popped out at me from the rule book was :

"no component or part normally found on a stock example of a given vehicle may be disabled, altered or removed..."

Of course further to that we also have the following:

"...protest against a car, that is for example, based on the absence of a valve cap or a cigar lighter, will be deemed vexatious..."


Ok, I am in agreement with the last statement. But how far does the limit of "vexatious" go?


Being a rather heavy driver, I search for ways to lighten the car (yes, including eating a few less cheesburgers Angry  ) by removing useless parts but never did because I was constantly told that would make my car illegal....


So I ask the gurus of the TECH world... What parts would fall under the category of "vexatious"? For example, I still have in the car the rear windshield wiper motor, windshield washer fluid bottle and those hydraulic pistons that hold up my rear hatch because they are "parts normally found on a stock example".


I don't see these parts on a few of the other cars..... are they still legal?

I would appreciate some clarification on these matters.

Thanks



Smiley
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Rye
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Re: Legal or not....that's the question....
Reply #1 - Apr 11th, 2010 at 8:40am
 
In my opinion, those cars that you are refering to are illegal, but it's not up to tech to make that call. Anything outside of safety equipment is policed by being protested by other drivers.

So unless someone is willing to call out another driver as a cheater, and file a protest, people are more or less free to do whatever their concience (or lack thereof) permits.

The system sucks, but there it is.

Richard
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LoCo
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Re: Legal or not....that's the question....
Reply #2 - Apr 11th, 2010 at 5:58pm
 
If one protests a car for having an unfair competitive advantage because it's missing a 3oz cigarette lighter it may be considered "vexatious". However, if a vehicle is missing the lighter, along with a wiper motor and perhaps some other components then I would warn you that you would be in a position to be protested without a defendable position. You were well advised not to remove parts to lighten your car. But I wouldn't protest someone if the knob on their heater was missing. This comment in the rule book is asking everyone to use common sense as we all are keenly aware when we cross the line, even though we tend to pretend we don't.
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Jordy Isaak
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Re: Legal or not....that's the question....
Reply #3 - Apr 12th, 2010 at 6:18am
 
Ok, some examples (my opinion only, all examples are for Improved Production cars):

- Missing headlight allowing cold air to the engine intake?  Not vexatious, in my opinion.  I'm still faster on the straights than the guy doing this, so I haven't felt the need to bother protesting.
- Lexan side windows, but car is still above minimum weight?  Illegal, but I wouldn't bother protesting it.  Below minimum weight?  Protest.  This brings up another issue.  Do we even have scales available for CACC events, if a minimum weight protest happens?  I can't remember ever taking my car across the scales at a CACC event.
- Cams, porting, high compression pistons, etc.  If I knew for sure that somebody was running them, I'd protest.  It's very hard to tell in practice without seeing the motor apart, so stuff like this is really up to the conscience of the guy that puts the motor together.

Maybe after the last race of the season we can all do show and tell with the insides of our motors!  Smiley.

Anyway, a couple conclusions:

- If you see somebody doing something you think is illegal and it bothers you, talk it over with them!  Sometimes people don't know what they're doing is illegal, or they think nobody cares.  Talk to them and try to settle things without having to throw paper.
- If you can't settle the matter, put in the protest!  Don't expect somebody else to do it for you, and don't expect tech to investigate without you asking them to.  They aren't police, they're judges.
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TECHMAN
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Re: Legal or not....that's the question....
Reply #4 - Apr 12th, 2010 at 6:58am
 
Read the SCCA rules for IT cars. They will tell you what you are allowed to remove, modify etc.
The duties of the Scrutineer(s) are not limited to safety items. Vehicle eligibility for the class they are enterd in is also part of the duties.

From the CACC GCR:
9.6 Scrutineer
A. Ensures the inspection for eligibility of all cars prior to the first track session and at any other subsequent time.

B. Reports to the clerk of the course the results of pre-race inspections and any subsequent inspections.

C. Inspects any cars damaged during track sessions.

D. Report to the clerk of the course any vehicle that is found not to conform to the requirements of the regulations.

E. The Scrutineer may re-inspect any and all vehicles that may become unsafe at any time during the event and conducts technical inspections at the request of the clerk of the course.

F. The Scrutineer shall not communicate any official information to any other person than the clerk of the course or steward.
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Jordy Isaak
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Re: Legal or not....that's the question....
Reply #5 - Apr 12th, 2010 at 7:28am
 
trackrat, yes, for ICSCC races they have the scales out.  Typically the top 3 finishers in each class are required to be weighed after the race or be disqualified.  If you aren't sure if you finished top 3, go across the scales anyway just to be sure!

It isn't that the ICSCC rules themselves are more strict, only that they're a little more vigilant in enforcing them than we typically are.

TECHMAN, I find what you said very interesting.  I was under the impression that tech would only look at class legality if a protest was filed.  If tech is supposed to look at class legality during pre-race inspection, why are some cars that are obviously not legal (missing headlight ducting air to the engine) passed?

- Jordy
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TECHMAN
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Re: Legal or not....that's the question....
Reply #6 - Apr 12th, 2010 at 8:08am
 
The scales will be out for the next CACC race. I hope by about 10 AM on Saturday for those of you wanting to check the weight of your vehicle.
The ICSCC race will probably have scales. Their rules require that the top three cars in class be weighed at the end of the race.
The first Cacc race was busy doing Annual Tech inspections. This usually was only to check safety items and quick visuals of the cars. Remember that cars may also comply with CACC rule 18.4.E
There is a choice. SCCA IT rules or CACC 18.4.E
not a combination.

18.4 Classification

E. All CACC registered Improved Production cars with a log book issued prior to June 1st, 2008 shall be allowed to compete in the class but must conform to the
published 2007 CACC Improved Production rules. This shall be noted in the vehicle logbook and dated by the Chief Scrutineer.
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Sign_Guy
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Re: Legal or not....that's the question....
Reply #7 - Apr 12th, 2010 at 11:40am
 
Possibly a better way to ask this would be in person, of a fellow racer, and with a smile on your face. Attitude goes a long way and sometimes, in spite of our best intentions, the internet doesn't allow us to ask questions or comment on something without it being taken the wrong way.

You can always query an official of any sanctioning body if you think someone isn't following the letter of the law. Ask a question or two first, see if the other guy will show you the part/parts in question. Rather than write up a protest, and pay the fee, leave that final resort for last.

8)
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Rob Dyck
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Re: Legal or not....that's the question....
Reply #8 - Apr 14th, 2010 at 3:25am
 
I agree Sign_Guy, I am not posting all this to be mean spirited but my understanding is we should be following the rules, which I believe is true.....

Tech mentioned the rule below:

18.4 Classification

E. All CACC registered Improved Production cars with a log book issued prior to June 1st, 2008 shall be allowed to compete in the class but must conform to the
published 2007 CACC Improved Production rules.

Can we get further clarification on this? are the 2007 rules different than the 2009 or 2010 rules?

Plainly speaking, are there a loopholes? Because my car has a logbook issued prior to the aforementioned date....

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TECHMAN
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Re: Legal or not....that's the question....
Reply #9 - Apr 14th, 2010 at 3:43am
 
The 2007 rules were not based on the SCCA IT rules. There were some things the same, but many things different.
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Jordy Isaak
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Re: Legal or not....that's the question....
Reply #10 - Apr 14th, 2010 at 8:24am
 
I don't have a copy of the 2007 CACC Race Regs, but back in 2007 I made a list of the differences between our then-current IP rules and the then-current SCCA IT rules:

1. In IP front license plates and brackets must be removed, no ruling in IT.
2. In IP headlights may be removed and the openings covered, prohibited in IT.
3. In IP the steering lock mechanism may be removed, in IT it must be removed.
4. In IP removal of door windows and mechanisms is allowed, in IT it is only allowed if "NASCAR-style" side protection is used.
5. In IP removal of door interior trim is allowed, in IT it is only allowed if a 0.060" aluminum sheet is used to cover the openings.
6. In IP removal of the door side impact beams is allowed, prohibited in IT.
7. In IP turn signals, fog and and accessory driving lights may be removed, prohibited in IT.
8. In IP there is no minimum ride height, in IT the minimum ride height is 5 inches as measured from the lowest point of the rocker panel.
9. In IP there is no restriction on wheel width, in IT there is.
10. In IP wheel size may be increased or decreased up to 2" from stock size, in IT wheel sizes are more restricted.
11. In IP brake calipers, rotors, and hubs are unrestricted, in IT they must be stock.
12. In IP any brake proportioning valve may be used, in IT only proportioning valves of certain types may be used.
13. In IP bumper grilles may be removed to facilitate brake cooling, in IT this is not permitted.
14. In IP turbocharged/supercharged cars are eligible to compete, in IT they are not.
15. In IP air intakes may be relocated anywhere, in IT they may be moved anywhere inside the engine bay or remain in the stock location.

I believe that under the old rules, directing air through a headlight opening to the engine intake was not legal.

If anybody has a link to the 2007 rules for those of us that don't have access to them anymore, that would be much appreciated.

- Jordy
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Sign_Guy
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Re: Legal or not....that's the question....
Reply #11 - Apr 14th, 2010 at 8:47am
 
No worries Rob, my comment was only meant to say that we've all gotten away from personal contact in the electronic age.

I've also been the victim of rules creep and seen other same-class cars run without class-designated parts. It's frustrating but in my case I can only blame myself for not asking.


Lorne.
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TECHMAN
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Re: Legal or not....that's the question....
Reply #12 - Apr 15th, 2010 at 5:59am
 
I believe the 2007 CACC IP rules were the same as the 2006 rules. I have not been able to find a 2007 only rule book. I seem to remember that there was no new 2007 rule book, only green sheets to update the 2006 book. Lorne may a better memory of this.
I have a copy of the 2006 book. I scanned the IP pages.
If someone needs a copy of these let me know. I'll send them to you as a PDF.
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ryano
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Re: Legal or not....that's the question....
Reply #13 - Apr 15th, 2010 at 2:02pm
 
ok after several tries responding to this, deleting my draft and then trying again the next day I feel ready to comment (only after Jordy ruled on lexan windows...).  The rules are way too complicated for a person who is trying to decide on a class and a car.  Two suggestions:

1. Lets create classes based on power to weight.
2. Lets get a bunch of folks together, agree on a make and model and run stock or close to it. 

I think we all liked the Honda/Michelin.  Spec Miata?  Yugo?

Ryan
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Jordy Isaak
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Re: Legal or not....that's the question....
Reply #14 - Apr 15th, 2010 at 2:11pm
 
What I posted wasn't a "ruling", it was an opinion on a hypothetical situation.  Not sure why that in particular was worth a comment.
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